Void's Forums

http://users.pandora.be/Ice9/News/Linux_desktop.html

I got kind of bored reading all those articles rehash the same stuff all over again (how easy it is to install Linux, how the neighbour's wife does all her stuff in Mandrake now, etc ...).
To me they were all more or less missing the point.

Anyway, could you guys please read the stuff I wrote today and tell me if I'm actually missing the point?

Thanks a lot.

i like what you have to say, and i can see where you are coming from.

incidentally, this is the sort of thing we are looking for at OpenOpen (a group of volunteers who hope to one day get to the point where we write to universities and businesses convincing them to use open source software). If you don't mind, pop over to www.openopen.cjb.net and join in, because at the moment we are looking for submissions for the website ( at openopen.org ) and a booklet we hope to get printed.

I agree entirely with your comments. Can you imagine Aunty Mable trying to install Linux and getting hooked up to the internet?! (no offence Aunty). I think I fall into the 'passionate with enough knowledge to do damage' category . I've had RedHat on for a month or so now and I'm thinking of reformatting and reinstalling because I've messed about with a lot of stuff. It finally seems to be running ok though so maybe I'll hold off for a while.

When you said that passionate users are the toughest, does that mean that they can generally beat up students and casual users?

This reminded me of your paper:

http://newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/ ... 208&tid=23

Funny comments.

as far as 'is linux desktop ready?' - i have this to say:
http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/showthr...postid=285184#post285184

When I first saw that article on Newsforge the other day I felt like "Fsck, everybody's gonna think I wrote a rip-off fo this article" but then I read it and noticed it was rather short and appart from him taking more or less the same approach than me there wasn't really that much overlap ...

Hadn't read the comments until now, there's somme funny stuff in there
Too bad half of the posters over there can't write more than 5 words correctly!

Actually that article is from yesterday. I believe it is a follow-up to a previous similar article. You probably read the first one initially (I never read it). I felt like jumping in on the comments but then I figured what's the point. Some of them are just M$ trolls trying to justify how they waste their hard earned cash. :)

I agree with much if not all of what you wrote. But there is another very important factor that I think you've missed. Many "casual users" (your term) have NO conception of what Linux, especially desktop Linux, really is. I've forced my students to learn the Unix (Solaris) or Linux command line for years, but many of them had absolutely no idea how friendly the Linux desktop is. I recently set up a RH 8 desktop in my office and have encouraged my students to give it a try. You wouldn't believe the comments! I have no idea what they thought it would look like or how it would work, but they were rreally impressed. And this was on an old Celeron 300 MHz w/ 96 MB of RAM and a 15" monitor.

The unfortunate part is that I sold (actually almost gave) it to one of my students today for $20. Let people see what Linux is and actually use it and they will see that it isn't some arcane and off-the-wall geek-only OS, but something that anybody can use.

The biggest hinderance to mass Linux adoption is the lack of exposure to it and the fact that it's difficult to purchase a computer with linux pre-installed.

IM(ns)HO

Jim

Ice9, I re-read your article and with my continued struggle with RedHat Linux my view has changed. You state that Linux is fine for casual users and students who only want to use email, internet and an office suite. That is fine until the inevitable moment comes when they want to do something else, like connect a digital camera, install a new media player, connect to their PDA or upgrade a component. Now they are plunged into a world of hurt, even the simplest task like connecting a flash card reader can involve recpompliling your kernel, finding the drive (in the dev folder) and mounting it compared to another os where it can be simply plugged in and accessed without the user having to do anything at all.
My cousin is an avid Windows fan and when he came round the other day I was eager to show off RedHat. He brought his digital camera with him and we tried to connect it, what a surprise, it didn't work. As soon as I started checking kernel configs and message logs he completely lost his interest.
It seems to me that Linux is only suitable for people who are prepared to battle through hours of google searching and forum reading every time they want to do anything other than email or websurf.
Having said that I am still trudging through the problems, heading for the promise of stability and there are many others who enjoy learning more about their systems and gaining a better understanding through solving these issues.

You really can't blame Linux for incompatible devices where the device manufacturer only supports Windows. Until Linux becomes more popular it will take a little more research up front to make sure you buy hardware that is supported. If Linux becomes more popular then hardware manufacturers will have no choice but to make sure their hardware is supported or they will lose much business. It's a chicken and egg thing. More people will use it with wider hardware support and there will be wider hardware support when more people use it. As I said, when you purchase hardware with Linux in mind it isn't a problem at all. You just can't assume that all hardware will work.

yeah, if a piece of hardware is wincrippled (TM) so it only works in windows (why? money perhaps? licencing perhaps?) then it's about as much use as trying to hook up an egg sandwich to your computer. it's all very well saying linux has bad hardware support but it actually has excellent hardware support for real hardware. linux can be run and installed on over eleven different computer architectures for example, compared with windows' huge score of one. that doesn't halp you with your digital camera issue but what you really need to do in future is check out whether you're getting a decent egg sandwich before you buy...

That's a valid point but I already had the camera. In fact, aren't a good majority of people who try Linux coming from a windows background and as such will already have hardware. I wonder how many people have ditched Linux and gone back to windows because they can't get a piece of hardware to work?
Also aren't we talking about getting Linux more widespread in the market-place? How will this happen? Ice9 says that

OEM's and the integrators can make the difference

by shipping

pc's with GNU/Linux pre-installed".

He also rightly says that

casual users don't really care about an os

but who's going to want a system that limits you to 5-10% of the extra devices on the market?
We're back to Void's quote of the chicken and egg situation. If lots of hardware were available for easy install then you've cracked it but alas that isn't the situation at the moment. How to break out of the cycle - I have no idea.

You break the cycle by getting the hardware vendor to ship Linux and to make sure there are drivers written for all the hardware (or only ship compatible hardware). You don't sit there and blame Linux for it, it won't do any good. Instead fire off an email to the vendor who sold you the piece of junk hardware that only works with Windows. As soon as enough people do that they will start writing drivers for Linux.

I've been using Linux for 10 years, long before there were such things as digital cameras. I had one of the first digital cameras and it worked find with Linux. It had a built in 3.5" floppy drive (Sony Mavica). Linux has been around almost as long as Windows and I have been using them both from the beginning. I have never really had a hardware problem, mainly because I buy "good" hardware.

He also rightly says that
Quote:
casual users don't really care about an os
but who's going to want a system that limits you to 5-10% of the extra devices on the market?

Someone who tries to connect a digital camera to a pc is not a casual user imo, casual users are .... well casual.
These are the people who start up their pc once or twice a week to read their e-mail and maybe type a letter, surf the web on Sundays and that's it.
I know plenty of people like that.

But you could have a point, more and more people are buying digital cameras nowadays and want to connect them to their pc.
On the other hand most of my friends who have digital cameras can connect them to their pc's running Windows and Linux.

I follow Void Main completely when he says that you can't blame Linux because the vendor chooses to only support Windows.
But this could be a setback for less persistent users, yes.

Void, what kind of camera do I have? Or does it qualify for being 'junk' simply because it doesn't have Linux support?

I must admit that you are absolutely right, it is not Linux to blame, it is the vendors, I have already fired off an email to the vendors of my camera and got a 1 line response saying 'Linux is not supported' - the piece of junk .
I would still say though that unfortunately the lack of support for extra devices must be hindering Linux growth. Even casual emailers might want to use an extra device at some point. We need to keep hammering those vendors.

Ice9, I can access the camera through windows but I was hoping that I wouldn't have to rely on windows and use Linux for everything.