Void's Forums

Hi All,

Things have been kind of quiet here of late and I've finally got a bit of free time again, so I thought I might stir things up a bit with a topic or two to throw around.

1) Minicom: I use minicom from home to talk to a couple of dozen MBC panels (trade name for a sort of a microcomputer that operates equipment like boilers and chillers and valves and pumps and stuff) from home using a dialup connection to a modem on their network. At work I communicate with them in two ways, one through a server with a GUI interface (I get to build the stupid GUI interface for the Windroids who need that crap to slow the network down and give me more work to do) and through a serial connection using DOS Kermit to interface directly with the system and actually write and tune the programs that the Z8 chips that do alll the work in the MBC panels can understand.

Err... actually, to be honest, I teach my students to do most of it, and I just check their code and clean it up and make sure that it's properly commented (mostly so I still know what's going on) but that's beside the point. I want to use minicom or some similar Linux program to replace DOS kermit.

Question #1:

Is it possible to configure minicom to be a simple terminal emulator and just talk directly to Stty1 (or whatever) without having to dial a modem and just deal with a hub that's always on the network?

Question #2

I just hired an assistant. His job title is Assistant Director of Facilities. He's a nice guy with lots of facilities management experience, but almost no computer experience... other than Winders point and click stuff. I told him that Linux knowledge was required for the job and that I would help him install Linux on his home computer and teach him about how to work with Linux. Is this unethical, especially considering that we work on a Windows network and I really don't know much about Linux myself except that it's a darn sight better than Windows? He's running Win95 at home and can't even open a M$Word or Excel file the College uses with the M$Office version he's running (Office95). He also has no clue as to what hyperterminal is or how to configure that.

Question #3

Back on ethics.... I managed to convince IT that Win2K and WinXP can't talk to my network because it's too stupid to interface with Windows. Gotta love Windroids Anyway, is it then unethical to tell them that I NEED to set up my old Win98 box to a dual boot win/lin box? The question is NOT is it right or better or anything like that.... just is it ethical? BTW, that's what I did tell them and that's what I'm doing. Also, if I had the 'cohones' I'd probably forget the dual boot stuff and just go all Linux.

Next topic.....

Red Hat really has kind of upset me with the rhl deal and the abandonment of boxed sets. Other than downloading ISO's they still haven't figured out how they will distribute RHL. I kind of felt that I was supporting Linux by purchasing boxed sets and now I find out that they don't want my money. And, considering that I'm still using dialup, downloading and installing ISO's isn't an option. Sure, I can get them, but it seems like they're turning their backs on the non-enterprise users. I realize that they don't make much money on us, but we probably do represent a large user base and some or even many of us may have influence on decision makers either now or in the future. It seems like a raw deal that they're turning their backs on us. I have been going to http://rhl.redhat.com to follow their discussions on this. Their present favored solution appears to be distributing CD's with magazines and books or by download. I can understand not providing support for RHL, but not this.

Question #4

Is Red Hat being foolish or am I just being selfish?

Question #5

If I have to give up on Red Hat Linux do I go to Mandrake or SuSE or what? It's not that I'm anti-French or anti-German... well, maybe I am, but that's a different matter and it didn't exist before the US went into Iraq <j/k ... more or less> but those two distros seem to be more desktop-oriented than Red Hat. (Actually, I was born in Germany and spoke German before I could speak English, and my last name (Dishaw) is a corruption of the French "Des Champs.") But, anyway, why don't the Brits/Scots have a Linux distro... (Calum?). They're not like the rest of the European wusses.

Ok, so I'm hammered. Just wanted to stir things up a bit here and get the traffic up a bit. If I get some info, that's a bonus. This is the best Linux site on the web and Linux is the best OS going.

Jim Dishaw

minicom: Yes, you should be able to use minicom to talk directly to devices through the serial port (if you can do it with Hyperterm, you can do it with minicom). I use it to configure routers/switches etc via direct serial connect.

ethics: Is it ethical to waste taxpayer money (or any money) on an expensive proprietary crappy OS just so you can exercise your MCSE when you can do a better job in many circumstances with a free/Free operating system?

Red Hat: Red Hat is turning their back on you because they will only *give* you their software from now on rather than sell it to you? Hmmm, they sound like bad bad people to me. :) I don't really have an opinion on it since I have only purchaces one boxed set of Red Hat (I don't remember which version, I believe 6.0). I have always downloaded or created my own Red Hat ISOs from their very first version. Give me your mailing address and I'll burn/ship you a copy when the new versions come out, my treat. I'm sure you can also purchase a copy from CD vendors at a few bucks a copy, much cheaper than you could buy it in a store for. I guess I am the exact opposite, I don't much care for SuSE because they don't offer an ISO download and it "must" be purchased (or do an ftp install).

if you help that guy install linux on his home machine, he'll be able to open all those college msoffice documents in openoffice.org and gnumeric i bet.

a couple of things. i can only find one reference to a UK distro of linux, here are the two relevant links:
Definite Linux Announcement
Definite Linux Site
so that pretty much wraps that up.
If you really are going to ditch red hat, then i imagine the general thrust will be to go with Debian, or if not, Slackware. Those are the mainstays and there are good reasons for that, just like there are reasons that red hat is probably market leader and key innovator amongst popular distributors.

One final note i might mention is this guy i know vaguely from the other best linux forum in the world who is from a company called Virtual Sky Media Group. They're based in Canada and are very much into promoting linux, and they distribute what looks like a nice straightforward linux called ALT Linux. looks promising, do read their site to see if you think it would be a good red hat drop in.

Calum wrote:If you really are going to ditch red hat, then i imagine the general thrust will be to go with Debian, or if not, Slackware. Those are the mainstays and there are good reasons for that, just like there are reasons that red hat is probably market leader and key innovator amongst popular distributors.

The only problem with that is you can't go in the store and buy boxed sets of Debian or Slackware either, which is his reason for possibly ditching Red Hat.

really? i thought debian was still available as its dvd and manual in a box set, and walnut creek are still doing a nice box of slackware aren't they? i don't actually know, i just assumed...

I don't believe I have ever seen them in a store (Best Buy etc). Red Hat is the only one I really see. I've also seen Mandrake in Wal-Mart but that's about it. On the other hand, I don't go shopping for Linux when I can download whatever I need, and $0.25 for a CDR just seems a better value to me.

Thanks for the responses!

I don't have any objection to purchasing CD's online, for example Debian provides lists of vendors where their CD's can be purchased and Slackware will sell the CD's online. Red Hat has stated fairly clearly that they will not do either OR provide any support for RHL. I've been reading the archives at rhl.redhat.com and I just feel that that's not the best way to deal with home users. The get a lot of good word of mouth support from us and I just think that this isn't the best way to treat us.

But, they have also made it pretty clear that they really don't know what they will be doing, other than "official" Red Hat CD's will not be available either from them or from 3rd parties. And that they will not even allow the name "Red Hat" to be used on CD's marketed by third parties.

Jim

dishawjp wrote:I don't have any objection to purchasing CD's online, for example Debian provides lists of vendors where their CD's can be purchased and Slackware will sell the CD's online. Red Hat has stated fairly clearly that they will not do either OR provide any support for RHL. I've been reading the archives at rhl.redhat.com and I just feel that that's not the best way to deal with home users. The get a lot of good word of mouth support from us and I just think that this isn't the best way to treat us.

But, they have also made it pretty clear that they really don't know what they will be doing, other than "official" Red Hat CD's will not be available either from them or from 3rd parties. And that they will not even allow the name "Red Hat" to be used on CD's marketed by third parties.

Can I ask exactly what you are looking for regarding home user support? From what I can tell they still have 60 day installation support if you buy RH9 professional. You can still get RHN, etc. What support is going away that you are currently getting? I know there are also 3rd parties out there that will do support if you want it. On the other hand, what support do you get from Debian or most of the others? It sounds to me like you are defining support as paying someone who may or may not have the answers you need. I define support another way. The best support I have ever gotten is via the many forums and mailing lists. Bugzilla is also a great resource that I don't believe is going away any time soon. How much support do you get out of other operating systems?

Like I said, if you like Red Hat I would be more than happy to burn copies and send them to you free of charge.

Not to keep beating on a dead horse, but I guess what's bothering me is that there won't be any "official" Red Hat Linux CD's available, except for download from Red Hat, or perhaps distributed with magazines.

You're prefectly correct, Void Main, that I and most users get most of our support from forums such as this one. Actually, for me, this forum and the local LUG are the only two support sources I need or use. And, as I said in my original post, I understand Red Hat not providing support for RHL, I just don't understand not providing for *any* retail distribution of their product.

I feel that what Red Hat is doing will make it more difficult for new users to become exposed to a really great Linux distribution and make it more difficult for people like me, who don't have high speed internet connections to keep up with Red Hat. I may take you up on your offer of CD's when RH 10 (Cambridge?) is released, but would insist on paying you something for your time, the media and postage. That's only fair. But how many newbies would have access to that type of service or know how to download and install ISO's? Red Hat won't even permit their name to be used on CD's sold by third parties. They would have to name it things like "Pink Tie Linux" or something similar that new users might not be able to even identify as Red Hat.

RHL seems to me to be an excellent all-round distribution; easy enough for newbies, yet fully featured enough for advanced users. I think that they may end up hurting the movement of Linux to the desktop by these practices if they are implemented.

I think what RH have done is going to do a big favour to Mandrake as they are stocked in shops like walmart, borders, compusa, pcworld etc.
People like to have a box to pick up from a shelf and its starting to look like the only boxes are going to be mandrake, freebsd, and maybe lindows (ick)

I know I have heard talk of all of this but I am trying to reserve comment until the time actually comes where something has changed. When RH10 comes out and there are no boxed sets on the shelves then I'll probably be jumping on the bandwagon (or off the bandwagon). I don't see any point in getting all worried about it, but then I have high speed. :) It personally wouldn't hamper me that much if Red Hat and SuSE and any other big player were to drop off the face of the earth. There will always be Debian no matter what happens to the stock market distros. I like Red Hat but I can switch wholesale to Debian without skipping a beat. I know that doesn't help people who don't have high speed but I would find it hard to believe that if Red Hat stops distributing through stores that they won't relax their policies about letting 3rd party CD houses sell Red Hat CDs with the name in tact. We'll just have to wait and see. I haven't looked at Red Hat's earning report to see how much revenue they actually make off of store purchases vs their other revenue streams but I am guessing that it's the corporate area where they pull most of their revenue from (RHAS, Support Contracts, etc). Again, I know that doesn't help the people that like to purchase Red Hat in the store.

the only places i have seen red hat, mandrake and other never-heard-of-them distros (but not slack, debian, suse et al) for sale in the UK or in Sydney or Melbourne has been as cover CDs for magazines such as Linux User, Linux Format and Linux World.

In Peter Jones the other day (it's a department store) i was in buying some audio leads and i happened to notice the software section. a whole shelf devoted to "Operating systems", and what was on there? Several Microsoft Windows XP boxes (including pointless "XP Plus!" packs etc) and five or six Norton boxes (none of them operating systems, all antivirus, system restore, some crap like that).

I did see a mandrake box once in Melbourne, but seriously everyone i know who has had linux at some point got it off the front of a magazine, so if it's new users we are looking at then there's your answer. of course once they buy the magazine there's adverts inside to buy red hat boxed, suse boxed, debian dvd set etc.

The local (to me) CompUSA stocks a pretty decent selection of Linux distributions. They always have SuSE (I think both personal and professional), Red Hat (personal and professional) and Mandrake. I've heard, but not seen, that they also sometimes carry Lycorice <sp?>, Lindows, and Xandros. They also sell Star Office for Linux and Windows. Besides that, they also carry a pretty decent line of Linux periodicals, including Linux Journal, LinuxFormat and several others.

Although I don't get out to that store more than once every couple of months or so, it does seem that they move out a lot of boxed sets. They have a pretty large section devoted to Linux and the fluctuations in the stock on their shelves makes it look like they must be selling a fair amount of Linux. And they get *plenty* for it. I bought a RH9 boxed set there when it first came out and it was $49.99, $10.00 more than if I had ordered it from Red Hat. I wouldn't have gotten it there except I had a day off and didn't feel like waiting

Jim