Where's the source?

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Void Main
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Where's the source?

Post by Void Main »

Ok, Novell/Ximian graciously put the ximian-connector under the GPL a few months back and I was able to create an RPM for the Fedoras. They just put up a new version of the connector but I can only find the binaries. I am sure this is just an oversight but having easy access to the source is the biggest benefit of the GPL. Can anyone help me find the source RPM? Here's a binary, along side an empty source directory:

http://ftp.ximian.com/pub/ximian-connec ... at-9-i386/

I need the source mainly because they do not provide binaries for Fedora and the binary connector RPM for RH9 will not work with Fedora.

Thanks!

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Post by Void Main »

A disappointing followup to this. I have yet to make any headway with Novell on a few GPL violations I have run across. Because of this I can not create Fedora packages for the ximian-connector software to match the versions they have available for RH9 and other distros. Here is the email exchange to date:

I xxxx'd out the web master's name and unspamified the addresses, otherwise exact copy:
From: "Void Main" <voidmain AT linuxmail.org>
To: "Novell Webmaster" <WEBMASTER AT novell.com>
Subject: Re: Feedback for http://www.novell.com/products/connector/
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 07:21:38 +0800

I am curious if you have heard anything new on this? It would appear
that the source for the RPMs I am interested in is still not
available. I have to say that when Novell announced that they were
putting ximian-connector under the GPL I was very happy. I am rather
disappointed that Novell is having a hard time following the license
they chose:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.htm ... JustBinary


Thanks for forwarding this and an even bigger thanks if you can
somehow get this corrected.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Novell Webmaster" <WEBMASTER AT novell.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:38:29 -0600
To: <voidmain AT linuxmail.org>

Subject: Re: Feedback for http://www.novell.com/products/connector/

> Hi again,
>
> I forwarded this to product management and the manager over this area
> of our site.
>
> Thanks,
> xxxxxx
>
> >>> "Void Main" <voidmain AT linuxmail.org> 6/22/2004 8:49:02 PM >>>
> Thank you for your reply but this is not the source that I am
> interested in. I already have the source that you point to and have
> built a Fedora 1 and Fedora 2 RPM from it. What I am interested in is
> the changes/source for the newer Red Hat 9 binary RPM located here:
>
> http://ftp.ximian.com/pub/ximian-connec ... 1.i386.rpm
>
>
> Notice the version for this is 1.4.7.2-0 where the source in the other
> directory is version 1.4.7.1. I don't know what changes were made
> between the two but there should be a file called
> "ximian-connector-1.4.7.2-0.ximian.6.1.src.rpm" that the above binary
> RPM was built from. In fact there is an empty directory right in there
> with it called "source" that would be a perfect place to contain this
> SRPM. The source RPM is usually placed right alongside the binary RPM
> for easy access. It is this source RPM with the changes to 1.4.7.2-0
> that I am interested in.
>
> It is common for this SRPM to accompany the binary RPM (in fact I
> believe it may be required to satisfy the GPL but I am not sure about
> that). I should be able to take the source RPM and basically build a
> duplicate to the above binary from it. And believe me, I'm not trying to
> give you a hard time about the GPL but I am genuinly interested in the
> source for the specific RPM as we have noticed some improvements in
> performance (may just be our imagination) and I want to build some
> Fedora RPMS like I did here:
>
> http://voidmain.is-a-geek.net/files/RPM ... 1.i386.rpm
> http://voidmain.is-a-geek.net/files/RPM ... .1.src.rpm
> http://voidmain.is-a-geek.net/files/RPM ... 1.i386.rpm
> http://voidmain.is-a-geek.net/files/RPM ... .1.src.rpm
>
>
> Thanks for your assistance!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Novell Webmaster" <WEBMASTER AT novell.com>
> Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:25:12 -0600
> To: <voidmain AT linuxmail.org>
> Subject: Re: Feedback for http://www.novell.com/products/connector/
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > Thanks for submitting feedback. Sorry for any confusion, the
> Evolution
> > and Connector source is posted in
> > a slightly different directory structure than most of the other
> > products. You can find the Evolution and Connector sources here:
> > http://ftp.ximian.com/pub/source/evolution/
> >
> > Thanks,
> > xxxxx xxxxxx
> > Novell Electronic Marketing Team
> >
> > >>> <voidmain AT linuxmail.org> 6/18/2004 10:56:30 AM >>>
> > URL: http://www.novell.com/products/connector/
> >
> > Feedback: Just curious, you have a link to "get Evolution Connector
> > Source code" at the bottom of the page and I can't find the source
> code
> > for the most recent release of the connector. I really need it to
> build
> > Fedora Core 1 and 2 RPMS. If I could get the associated SRPM for the
> RH9
> > binary RPM that would be perfect. Here's the binary RPM I would like
> the
> > source for:
> >
> >
> http://ftp.ximian.com/pub/ximian-connec ... 1.i386.rpm
>
> >
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Void
> >
> > Submitted by: voidmain AT linuxmail.org
> >
> > Browser: Netscape 5.0 (X11; en-US)
> >
> >
>
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Post by Tux »

That's pretty bad.
Are you gonna contact the FSF if they keep this up?

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Post by Void Main »

Well I really hate pushing it too hard, especially because it *is* their code. :) I was really hoping they would have said something along the lines of "Oh yeah, you're right we forgot to put the SRPM on the server with the binary. There, we've put the SRPM out there with the binary, thank's for the catch!". But we haven't been that lucky.

It's disappointing because they (Novell) made such a big deal about putting the thing under the GPL in the first place and now they don't seem to care weather or not they abide by the license or not. I know they have all the source out there in other forms but that really isn't quite good enough. According to the GPL they need to put source out for modified versions so that I can build the same binary without jumping through hoops.

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Post by worker201 »

Hopefully this is not an example of things to come. It almost seems like Novell was paying lip service to open source, with no intention of backing it up. That would be a damn shame, and an unfortunate precedent for the Linux community.

On a side note, I think it is going to take a lot of adjusting for software engineers to realize that there is money to be made without proprietary source. The concepts of open source just don't fit into their business models. Therefore, it is almost inevitable that some companies will try to twist open source to their sole benefit. Sadly, the computer industry just doesn't seem flexible enough to run with FSF concepts.

Keep bugging them. If Novell is pulling some kind of scam, it's best to get it out to the community before real trouble starts.

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Post by Void Main »

Again, I really don't think they are trying to pull any kind of scam. I truly believe it is an oversight. Novell is new at this GPL thing so everyone there may not be completely familiar with the rules. Of course since they are the copyright holder of the code they can put it under whatever license they wish and do not have to supply the source but they chose the GPL and the put the binary out there without the source which is a no-no under the GPL. I am just disappointed that they aren't too eager to correct the problem.

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Post by Void Main »

UPDATE:

I did contact GNU out of curiousity. I asked what can be done when someone violates the GPL on software that they hold the copyright to. They confirmed what I already suspected in that as the copyright holder they "can't" violate their own license. Also, it is up to them to enforce the license that they chose for any other violators. They likely aren't going to take themselves to court over it. :) The most you can do is contact them and hope to get through to them just as I have been doing.

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Post by Void Main »

UPDATE:

They pointed me to the source tar.gz file which resides on another server which doesn't really satisfy the GPL I don't believe, but I gave some suggestions for the future that I hope they consider. Now it's on to try and build some Fedora updates out of this source.

Code: Select all

xxxxx, first of all I want to thank you for following up with this
and I do understand that it is an honest mistake, like I always
figured it was. I do also want to let you know that in this case
being able to get the source from the Gnome ftp server will allow me
to build the Fedora RPMS to match your Red Hat RPMS, with a little
extra work. It is also my opinion that this still does not satisfy
the license. However, since Novell (Ximian) people hold the copyright
it is up to them to enforce the license. You as the copyright holder
can not violate your own license. It would however be a violation for
me to put the same binary you have on your server on my server
without the source code that was used to build that binary. 

I just think it would be a good habit to get in to if your RPM
builder people would place the Source RPM (*.src.rpm) file right
along side the binary RPM when they put it up on your server. Again,
it is my opinion that this is actually a requirement of the GPL.
There are FAQ questions about the license that are very interesting
reading and very easy to understand:

http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html

Again, I thank you for pointing me to the matching source and I can
now start working on the matching Fedora RPMS.

Thanks!
Void


----- Original Message -----
From: "Novell Webmaster" <WEBMASTER@novell.com>

Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2004 14:36:06 -0600
To: <voidmain@linuxmail.org>

Subject: Re: Feedback for http://www.novell.com/products/connector/ J1

> Hi,
> 
> OK, I found out that this was accidentally missing from
ftp.ximian.com
> (honest mistake by the build team) but has been on gnome.org at:
> ftp://ftp.gnome.org/pub/GNOME/sources/ximian-connector/1.4/
 since it
> was released. This was fixed today. Thanks again for your
patience.
> 
> xxxxx
> 
> >>> Novell Webmaster 7/14/2004 3:06:25 PM >>>
> Hi again,
> 
> I haven't heard anything so I have resent the message. I will
follow up
> with you asap...
> 
> xxxxx
> 
> >>> "Void Main" <voidmain@linuxmail.org>
 7/10/2004 5:21:38 PM >>>
> I am curious if you have heard anything new on this? It would
appear
> that the source for the RPMs I am interested in is still not
available.
> I have to say that when Novell announced that they were putting
> ximian-connector under the GPL I was very happy. I am rather
> disappointed that Novell is having a hard time following the
license
> they chose:
> 
> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#ModifiedJustBinary
 
> 
> Thanks for forwarding this and an even bigger thanks if you can
somehow
> get this corrected.
> 
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Novell Webmaster" <WEBMASTER@novell.com>

> Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2004 12:38:29 -0600
> To: <voidmain@linuxmail.org>

> Subject: Re: Feedback for http://www.novell.com/products/connector/ 
> 
> > Hi again,
> > 
> > I forwarded this to product management and the manager over
this
> area
> > of our site.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > xxxxx
> > 
> > >>> "Void Main" <voidmain@linuxmail.org>
 6/22/2004 8:49:02 PM >>>
> > Thank you for your reply but this is not the source that I
am
> > interested in. I already have the source that you point to
and have
> > built a Fedora 1 and Fedora 2 RPM from it. What I am
interested in
> is
> > the changes/source for the newer Red Hat 9 binary RPM
located here:
> > 
> >
> http://ftp.ximian.com/pub/ximian-connector/redhat-9-i386/ximian-connector-1.4.7.2-0.ximian.6.1.i386.rpm

> 
> > 
> > 
> > Notice the version for this is 1.4.7.2-0 where the source
in the
> other
> > directory is version 1.4.7.1. I don't know what changes
were made
> > between the two but there should be a file called
> > "ximian-connector-1.4.7.2-0.ximian.6.1.src.rpm"
that the above
> binary
> > RPM was built from. In fact there is an empty directory
right in
> there
> > with it called "source" that would be a perfect
place to contain
> this
> > SRPM. The source RPM is usually placed right alongside the
binary
> RPM
> > for easy access. It is this source RPM with the changes to
1.4.7.2-0
> > that I am interested in. 
> > 
> > It is common for this SRPM to accompany the binary RPM (in
fact I
> > believe it may be required to satisfy the GPL but I am not
sure
> about
> > that). I should be able to take the source RPM and
basically build a
> > duplicate to the above binary from it. And believe me, I'm
not trying
> to
> > give you a hard time about the GPL but I am genuinly
interested in
> the
> > source for the specific RPM as we have noticed some
improvements in
> > performance (may just be our imagination) and I want to
build some
> > Fedora RPMS like I did here:
> > 
> >
> http://voidmain.is-a-geek.net/files/RPMS/ximian-connector-1.4.7-0.fc1vm.1.i386.rpm

> 
> > 
> >
> http://voidmain.is-a-geek.net/files/RPMS/ximian-connector-1.4.7-0.fc1vm.1.src.rpm

> 
> > 
> >
> http://voidmain.is-a-geek.net/files/RPMS/ximian-connector-1.4.7-0.fc2vm.1.i386.rpm

> 
> > 
> >
> http://voidmain.is-a-geek.net/files/RPMS/ximian-connector-1.4.7-0.fc2vm.1.src.rpm

> 
> > 
> > 
> > Thanks for your assistance!
> > 
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Novell Webmaster" <WEBMASTER@novell.com>

> > Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2004 18:25:12 -0600
> > To: <voidmain@linuxmail.org>

> > Subject: Re: Feedback for http://www.novell.com/products/connector/ 
> > 
> > > Hello,
> > > 
> > > Thanks for submitting feedback. Sorry for any
confusion, the
> > Evolution
> > > and Connector source is posted in
> > > a slightly different directory structure than most of
the other
> > > products.  You can find the Evolution and Connector
sources here:
> > > http://ftp.ximian.com/pub/source/evolution/ 
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > xxxxx xxxxx
> > > Novell Electronic Marketing Team
> > > 
> > > >>> <voidmain@linuxmail.org>
 6/18/2004 10:56:30 AM >>>
> > > URL: http://www.novell.com/products/connector/ 
> > > 
> > > Feedback: Just curious, you have a link to "get
Evolution
> Connector
> > > Source code" at the bottom of the page and I
can't find the source
> > code
> > > for the most recent release of the connector. I really
need it to
> > build
> > > Fedora Core 1 and 2 RPMS. If I could get the
associated SRPM for
> the
> > RH9
> > > binary RPM that would be perfect. Here's the binary
RPM I would
> like
> > the
> > > source for:
> > > 
> > >
> >
> http://ftp.ximian.com/pub/ximian-connector/redhat-9-i386/ximian-connector-1.4.7.2-0.ximian.6.1.i386.rpm

> 
> > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Thanks,
> > > Void

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Post by Void Main »

UPDATE3:

This file was placed on the ximian server yesterday:
http://ftp.ximian.com/pub/source/evolut ... 7.2.tar.gz

This might just satisfy the GPL. It would certainly be easiest if they would just place the *.src.rpm files along side the binary rpm files. I hope they start doing this in the future. At least they were nice enough to put up with all my inquiries and get the source up there.

Thanks Novell!

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